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Zeylon Rho
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3539
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Posted - 2014.02.25 03:16:00 -
[1] - Quote
Scouts are more about speed, and the Amarr advantage of "hp" is pointless in the scout class of suits. Sacrificing speed to get 30hp on a non-tanking suit is utterly pointless, like putting thick layers of bulletproof glass on racing car.
I say this because of the dreary state of the Amarr Scout in particular to lack a comparable speed edge over the Assault class. Don't mistake me, the Amarr Scout would still be the "worst" scout with the worst bonuses after dropping 30hp for increased speed. It would just be an actual scout at that point.
I'd take it even further and say you could drop the innate stamina bonus too. In either case, actual suit speed will serve a scout better than 30 hp and a 4% speed hit (a larger speed hit than you'd have for enhanced plates).
The Amarr hp-for-speed tradeoff is questionable even on the tanking suits, but it's completely self-defeating on speed-based suits. The Amarr who can make the second fastest ships in EVE were somehow unable to avoid strapping on extraneous armor plates to their speed-based suit? It's stupid.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3547
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Posted - 2014.02.25 03:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I wouldn't mind some speed changes to all the suits really; I mention the business with the Amarr scout specifically since it's such a large handicap to that role.
I also think people get caught up with criticizing the bonus (which IS bad), and miss the larger problem of gimpy speed. That, or they have some silly notions about the Amarr being a great "tank" scout, when it will be overshadowed by Assaults with the same speed and more slots. It's also beaten at that role by faster scouts like the Gallente who have other bonuses to boot and will hp-tank/speed-tank better at the same time, or Shield-based scouts like the Caldari that can leverage the super-high scout shield regen better.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3555
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Posted - 2014.02.25 09:09:00 -
[3] - Quote
Obodiah Garro wrote:Amarr are better in the heavy classes not the scout class, balance and all that.
That's the point of my suggestion. The scout would clearly be worse, but it would be a scout. The way they choose to balance the Amarr against other races doesn't work when the defining factor of that role is speed. If they did nothing but subtract the hp and add the speed, the Amarr scout would be a better scout, but still woefully worse than the others - that falls perfectly into your statement.
It's also debatable if the Amarr is "better" in the heavy classes, as we've only had the Amarr Heavy so far. I think some people may feel the speed you get from the other heavies makes them better than the trade-off in hp.
I use the EVE example of ships because it's possible to "balance" races, and still have them able to fill roles. Forcing hp and speed to be the balancing factor on every single role/item in the game isn't balance, it's stupidity. The game has a number of stats with which to balance the races to make them different while not necessarily "better", and the point at which the scout doesn't have their speed... it's not an issue of better/worse, it's an issue of not being able to fill the role.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3558
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Posted - 2014.02.25 12:58:00 -
[4] - Quote
maka rax wrote:You sort of have to go back to Eve to figure out why Minni scouts would make "better" scouts (in your example). Minmatar are all about speed. Look at the ships in Eve and you'll see this.
Now, look at the LARGE ships in eve. Where speed doesn't matter. Minni has some lacking features.
Point is, in the scout class of suits if "speed is king" then Minmatar SHOULD be hailed to.
I don't disagree that the Minmatar should be the fastest, but the roles are managed more discretely in EVE. Also, when we talk about LARGE ships, we basically get into the Dust vehicles. Our dropsuits are specialist frigates for most intents and purposes.
I've trotted out this example before, but with respect to the ship speed comparisons: Interceptors: Minmatar Claw 475 m/s Amarr 455 m/s Caldari Crow 430 m/s Gallente Ares 425 m/s
The Amarr is the 2nd fastest, and their fastest ship outstrips the fastest Gallente/Caldari by a larger margin than the Claw has on the Crusader. Those are the empire's "fast" ships. Let's do a role comparison though, here are the fastest Assault frigs:
Minmatar Jaguar 357 m/s Gallente Enyo 288 m/s Amarr retribution 278 m/s Caldari Hawk 273 m/s
The Amarr isn't the slowest here either, but the Minmatar still has a huge lead. Fine. Minmatar are fast. Here's the point though, the fastest of these assaults is still much slower than the interceptors. The slowest interceptor (among the fastest) is still 20% faster than the fastest assault. The ROLES are clearly defined. The fast ships are all faster than the assaults. That is what the Amarr Scout lacks. The role definition of speed.
I think balancing around basically two factors (speed and hp) is detrimental to diversity and racial variety. You can differentiate the races in other ways. Supposedly the speed cap is an issue, but it should be possible to adjust all the speeds at the same time to maintain scout-speed superiority over the assaults. The Amarr Scout will be the ONLY one without the speed advantage as-is.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3568
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Posted - 2014.02.25 19:42:00 -
[5] - Quote
The Terminator T-1000 wrote:I agree that 30 hp is nothing. Even a complex shield extender is nothing. The way the game is right now, whoever does the more damage wins.... I also never understood why an enhanced armor plate gives you 110 hp and a complex gives 135 hp ( just 25 more hp) but the CPU and PG doubles. One single bullet does more than 25 hp of damage!!!! That is why the game is so unbalanced!! I think I went a little of track here, sorry
I'd hope the TTK adjustments help with this, but I certainly agree that hp increments barely make a difference as things stand right now. When a new player is introduced to the game and afforded the opportunity to select modules, under what circumstances should they believe that a 22 hp shield extender will help them (STD/MLT)? For most weapons, that's not even a round. For high damage ones, it's unlikely to be the difference in life or death.
Let's say you've skilled up and you now have an ADV Shield extender. How much better is 33 hp, really?
It's a general issue, but I can't actually picture any scenario where 30 hp would be more useful to a scout than the speed the Amarr suit seemingly gives up for it. It ceases to be a proper scout so it can fail at combat apparently.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3578
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Posted - 2014.02.25 22:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Killar-12 wrote:COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH.
That said, I'm not interested in taking anything away from the Gallente. I just want the Amarr to have a scout as well.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3578
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Posted - 2014.02.25 22:40:00 -
[7] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote:Are you driving that race car through a warzone where a big glowing blue light could mean your instant demise?
If so, then maybe you'll want that Bulletproof glass.
The more practical approach would be to not take a race car (which would be crap on anything that wasn't a paved road) onto the warzone.
Stock cars are stripped down for speed, which is why you wouldn't add something like heavy armor to them... it would defeat the point. This would be the case even if an Armor manufacturer was the sponsor of said car, because weighing a speed-focused vehicle down to live up to some abstract association you have is a bad idea.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3623
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Posted - 2014.02.27 18:34:00 -
[8] - Quote
Kelrie Nae'bre wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Killar-12 wrote:COUGH DAMPS COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH RANGE COUGH COUGH COUGH COUGH ULITMATE SCANNING SUIT COUGH COUGH. That said, I'm not interested in taking anything away from the Gallente. I just want the Amarr to have a scout as well. Yeah. I had mixed feelings on the whole idea of an "assault logi" to begin with. Is their Assault not Assault enough? Does the race need a logi that half-asses the role? The "assault" element turned out to mean "add sidearm" and "get equipment slots later and have fewer slots overall". Super. The shifts on the Sentinel/Heavy suits already call to mind questions of why exactly the Amarr medium will be shorted a slot now. At least it's still two equipment slots. An "assault scout" that has more hp and assault-level speed is just asinine though. It's about as useful as male nipples. Scouts need to be scouts. I'd gladly give up the natural stamina advantage and 30 hp to actually be a GODDAMN scout. Jesus... I feel like CCP went fullretard deciding to apply "LOL, SLOWER & PLUS HP" to everything Amarr.
Races having tendencies is one thing, making all of the races role-suits into effectively "hybrids" that may not be able to accomplish the role in question is a poor idea to me.
With respect to the logi in particular, I think losing +5 innate reps and armor repairer bonus will probably be scaling back it's "assault" traits to a large degree.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3638
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Posted - 2014.02.28 16:04:00 -
[9] - Quote
Dehlia Metii wrote:Wanna hear something lulzy? They're introducing new MLT frames for the missing suit types I assume.
So... Fossil Logistics.
It's a Minmatar MLT suit with Assault HP and Speed, but 2 equip slots. So, There's a "Low-level" Minmatar Assault that'll run faster than the Amarr Light, have more hp, and have 2 equip slots. Pretty groovy, right?
Seriously though. If they knocked off the hp and added to the speed, I might actually use the Amarr Scout. Otherwise it's basically the death/gimpsuit.
The Fossil is something of an exception to the normal rule. It's the only "logi" suit with assault hp, and it's MLT with only 2 equip slots. It still gives up a sidearm as well. I'm not too worried about MLT level competition. The Amarr Scout will have balance issues from STD to PRO on account of the lack of speed.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3676
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Posted - 2014.03.01 06:06:00 -
[10] - Quote
bamboo x wrote:maybe you amarr scum will get a taste of how it feels to be the shittiest suit in the game for a change
+1 for roleplaying
-2 for revenge-approach to suit balance
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3703
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Posted - 2014.03.04 01:14:00 -
[11] - Quote
Well, I don't think there's actually a control scheme to allow for different grenade types.
Are you suggesting matching the speeds, but mixing it up with those changes?
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3706
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Posted - 2014.03.04 02:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
General12912 wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Scouts are more about speed, and the Amarr advantage of "hp" is pointless in the scout class of suits. Sacrificing speed to get 30hp on a non-tanking suit is utterly pointless, like putting thick layers of bulletproof glass on racing car.
I say this because of the dreary state of the Amarr Scout in particular to lack a comparable speed edge over the Assault class. Don't mistake me, the Amarr Scout would still be the "worst" scout with the worst bonuses after dropping 30hp for increased speed. It would just be an actual scout at that point.
I'd take it even further and say you could drop the innate stamina bonus too. In either case, actual suit speed will serve a scout better than 30 hp and a 4% speed hit (a larger speed hit than you'd have for enhanced plates).
The Amarr hp-for-speed tradeoff is questionable even on the tanking suits, but it's completely self-defeating on speed-based suits. The Amarr who can make the second fastest ships in EVE were somehow unable to avoid strapping on extraneous armor plates to their speed-based suit? It's stupid. wait until it comes out before you make judgements on the suits. 'nuff said.
Which is totally why they posted the suit stats and asked for Feedback.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3706
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Posted - 2014.03.04 02:42:00 -
[13] - Quote
General12912 wrote:with all this whining though, i'll probably get my gallentean sentinel by mid-april . and im pretty sure they want feedback on the topic regarding the stats. not your own topic.
They said they'd welcome any Feedback. Unlike, say, the respec thread - there is no stipulation to put all feedback in one place. 1.8 is due this month regardless of what concerns we raise. That much is confirmed.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3717
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Posted - 2014.03.05 15:03:00 -
[14] - Quote
With the new Assault suit stats. Released, we can see the speed difference remains intact.
The Minmatar Assault is FASTER than the Amarr Scout.
It's also interesting to note in contrast tat the fastest Commando (Minmatar) is still much slower than the slowest Logi (Amarr) (by a factor of about 7%. The logi enjoys a nice .3 m/s speed advantage on the Commando, while the Amarr SCOUT is fukcing slower than the Minmatar Assault. If any role is supposed to enjoy a comfortable speed advantage over the next role, it's the SCOUT.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3717
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Posted - 2014.03.05 15:22:00 -
[15] - Quote
Meeko Fent wrote: Yes, and those base Assault Level Speed is getting reduced by the assault suit stacking plates.
THe Scout is still ok suit if it's Combat fitted.
+Faster Then Assault of similar level +Smaller Hitbox +People expecting Super Squisy +50s
-Less HP then the Assault of Similar Level -Slower then what it could be -Light on fitting resources
Meh. The assault we're comparing it with (Minmatar) is a shield tanker. If they both try to tank without impacting speed, the Minmatar will still easily have a huge huge advantage.
The scout won't be noticeably "stronger" than the Gallente. The 30hp is negligible, and the Gallente has a free enhanced repper to go along with its higher speed.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3770
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Posted - 2014.03.07 19:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Spectral Clone wrote:Gallente scout is also better at assaulting than caldari assault. Lulz. Dat 30 hp/s shield regen.
Dust is very much work in progress.
True. I feel strongly about this because I feel the deficits of the Amarr scout are obvious, especially in comparison.
I was more irked about the lack of a speed gap when I discovered there IS a large speed gap between the fastest Commando and Slowest logi... which are arguably less speed sensitive roles than a scout.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3807
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Posted - 2014.03.12 17:14:00 -
[17] - Quote
And.... no changes to the Amarr scout. Still slower than the Minnie assault. Still the worst bonus.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3812
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Posted - 2014.03.12 20:11:00 -
[18] - Quote
Beren Hurin wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:And.... no changes to the Amarr scout. Still slower than the Minnie assault. Still the worst bonus. wrong. they adjusted the base stamina from where it was before. 225 to 275.
No changes to the "problems". The speed difference and the ****-bonus.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3813
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Posted - 2014.03.12 20:59:00 -
[19] - Quote
Vell0cet wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:Beren Hurin wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:And.... no changes to the Amarr scout. Still slower than the Minnie assault. Still the worst bonus. wrong. they adjusted the base stamina from where it was before. 225 to 275. No changes to the "problems". The speed difference and the ****-bonus. Maybe someone needs to make a video when 1.8 is released showing just how bad it is. The problem of course is finding someone dumb enough to p*ss away enough SP to to proto out the Amarr scout.
Probably a bad idea to skill into medium suits too, since those are being changed too, but they didn't get around to it.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3834
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Posted - 2014.03.18 10:58:00 -
[20] - Quote
I think some people missed the point of the thread, really.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3835
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Posted - 2014.03.18 19:18:00 -
[21] - Quote
Master Smurf wrote:Amarr Scout being slightly slower than Minmatar Assault isnt the end of the world.
It has significantly more stamina and higher stamina regen and 4 Lows. It can use twin Kin Cats and always be better than the Minnie Assault over distance (which will be short for the assault). - That goes quite well with smaller hitbox, dampening, cloak, range etc
It's not about the "end of the world". People will be able to kill things with an Amarr Scout. People will be able to cloak, capture objectives, and so on.
It's about the relative strengths of the suit compared to other suits. The Amarr niche of "slower + higher hp" doesn't make sense in context of making a "the fastest suits in the game" (CCP's words, not mine). Scouts aren't about tanking damage, but to the extent they are, 30 hp is much less useful than the speed would be.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
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3840
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Posted - 2014.03.19 21:29:00 -
[22] - Quote
Vespasian Andendare wrote:I don't know where you guys are coming up with this logic that Amarr are about speed. They never have been. They never will be. Amarr are about thick brick tanks on slow ships. Speed order in Eve is Minmatar > Gallente > Caldari > Amarr. Amarr philosophy is about sustain. In Eve that's accomplished through bonuses to capacitor, armor damage resistances and enough lows to fit a solid buffer tank. Dust accomplishes this trick with many lows for a thick armor tank and enough stamina (and stam regen) to be able to sprint longer/farther, making up some of the loss of innate speed the plates give you.
Although, I think it's cute that you cherry picked the Interceptors to make your speed argument. Anyone who has ever played Eve knows that Amarr ships are armor tanked, which reduces speed. They have a very low-slot-heavy allocation, so the speed is there to make up for the fact that Interceptors are supposed to be fast, and yet Amarr should fit armor plates that'll slow you down. So, really, before you go cherry pick the "perfect" example of something that really doesn't apply, do your research first.
You completely missed the point of that. The point of the interceptor example isn't that "Amarr is always 2nd fastest". It's that when choosing to accomplish a role about speed (in this case, interceptor), they don't pile on armor "just because" Amarr love armor. Basically, it's about the fact that the Amarr aren't so stupid as to make their "fast ships" slow just to adhere to some racial tendency concept that only makes sense in the context of a game as opposed to an actual culture. I think it's "cute" that you mention the armor-tanking as if that really happens with interceptors. You'll note most Amarr Interceptor fits don't pile on extra armor (or if they do, it's not enough to alter the rankings I mentioned).
So, not "all Amarr ships are fast", but "Amarr doesn't make its speed ship slow with extra armor just because lol-armor."
You then have to ask what the intended role of scouts is. Let's quote CCP:
Quote:The Light Frames are the fastest suits in the game, finding themselves at home flanking, harassing and generally causing mayhem on the battlefield.
Except this patently false given that at least one of the suits (the Amarr specifically) is slower than one of the Assault frames.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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Zeylon Rho
Subdreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
3840
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Posted - 2014.03.19 23:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
Western Ways wrote:Zeylon Rho wrote:With the new Assault suit stats. Released, we can see the speed difference remains intact.
The Minmatar Assault is FASTER than the Amarr Scout.
It's also interesting to note in contrast tat the fastest Commando (Minmatar) is still much slower than the slowest Logi (Amarr) (by a factor of about 7%. The logi enjoys a nice .3 m/s speed advantage on the Commando, while the Amarr SCOUT is fukcing slower than the Minmatar Assault. If any role is supposed to enjoy a comfortable speed advantage over the next role, it's the SCOUT. I understand why the speed bothers you but the minassault is only marginally faster than the amar scout, it has 35 less armor and 55 more ehp at base levels. I stacked some complex ferroscale plates and complex extenders on an amarr scout and a minassault, the scout had more ehp, better regen, similar speed and a smaller hitbox. it's better at assaulting than the minmatar assault suit. I think the amarr scout should be faster too, but lets not act like it isn't better than the minmatar assault.
I'd be curious to see how you built that with complex ferroscale/extenders such that the Minmatar somehow came out with less Ehp.
Amarr Scout: 60 shields 170 armor 2H 4L at PRO Minmatar Assault: 150 shields 135 armor 5H 2L at PRO
With Dropsuit Shield/Armor Upgrades maxed: Ak.0 = 287.5 Mk.0 = 356.25
That's without any modules.... continuing:
Add 5 Shield Extenders to the Mk.0: 66 hp + 10% hp from max extender skill x 5 = 363 Add 2 Ferroscale Plates to the Mk.0: 75 hp + 10% hp from max plate skill x 2 = 165 Total: 528 from modules
Add 2 Shield Extenders to the Ak.0 66 hp + 10% hp from max extender skill x 2 = 145.2 Add 4 Ferroscale Plates to the Ak.0: 75 hp + 10% hp from max plate skill x 4 = 330 Total: 475.2
Add those hp to the base to get the total with stacked ferroscale plates and complex extenders: Mk. 0: 884 eHP Ak. 0: 763 eHP
That puts the eHP difference with ferro/extenders at 121 hp in the Minmatar's favor (about 2 complex shield extenders).
That said, I think the Minmatar Assault SHOULD have more hp than the Amarr suit, that was precisely the original point - roles. The problem isn't the marginal speed edge, it's that they're practically the same speed and there's no differentiation in terms of speed between the much tankier assault suit and the scout suit. The Scout suit should have fewer hp AND be faster.
Dren and Templar equipment stats, wrong since release.
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